Alice: Welcome back, friends!
Lyn: Hello, everyone! I’m back from my staffing duties at Anime Boston and finally feeling less like I was run over by a chasmfiend. I’m so happy to be back in the Ryshadium saddle with Alice for another fun reread—though I’m upset that I missed Syl teasing Kaladin about ::ahem:: relationship matters.
A: This week, we get to watch Dalinar attempt to play politics, with careful guidance from his wife and various scribes. Why don’t people just say what they mean?
L: Because politics.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. If we need to talk about things from other Cosmere novels, we’ll note that here, and potentially white them out if they’re really big things. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Dalinar
WHERE: Urithiru
WHEN: 1174.1.3.1 (Three days after Chapter 9)
Our chapter begins with Dalinar taking a moment to reflect on the view from Urithiru and the roles of the past Knights Radiant before delving into a series of political discussions with various world leaders. He speaks via spanreed with the Prime of Azir first, learning that the Azish have opened negotiations with the parshmen. Dalinar extends an offer for the Prime to come and visit Urithiru, and when that fails, he offers to come visit himself through the oathgate, which also fails. Frustrated, Dalinar then communicates with Queen Fen of Thaylenah. The Queen is more brash than reserved, but she seems to harbor the same reservations as the Azish. She does tell him that the parshmen took off with all of their ships, but refuses all of Dalinar’s offers.
As the meeting is wrapping up, Dalinar receives a surprise guest—Elhokar, who has come to formally swear allegiance to his uncle as high king. But the surprises aren’t through yet—Dalinar receives one last “call,” from an unexpected source—King Taravangian is willing to come to Urithiru. (dun dun duuuuuun…)
Threshold of the Storm
Title: Negotiations
There are so many instances of this word, and various forms of it, that I’m not even going to try to quote a significant one. The whole chapter is about Dalinar trying to negotiate with monarchs—oh, and the Azish maybe-maybe-not negotiating with their local version of Voidbringers.
Heralds
Jezrien holds all four slots this week: King, Windrunners, Protecting & Leading. It seems fairly clear that this reflects Dalinar’s leadership; it might also indicate the other rulers he contacts.
Icon
The Kholin shield, as always, indicates a Dalinar chapter.
Epigraph
I ask not that you forgive me. Nor that you even understand.
—From Oathbringer, preface
Well, that’s a weird one, out of context! I don’t see that it has any particular relevance to the chapter; it’s just the next bit in the document.
Stories & Songs
You idealize them, said a distant voice in his head, like rumbling thunder. They were men like you. No better. No worse.
“I find that encouraging,” Dalinar whispered back. “If they were like us, then it means we can be like them.”
A: I love this little elbow-in-the-ribs to the reader here. We think of Knights Radiant as the current crop: Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Jasnah, Renarin, Lift, etc., and we’re pretty excited about their powers. From Dalinar’s perspective, though, the Radiants are legends, almost more than they are historical figures. They could do all these awesome things, while he and his tiny band are fumbling their way through the baby steps by comparison. I can see why he feels encouraged by the knowledge that he, Kaladin, Shallan, etc. have the potential to reach the same level of skills and powers. For all the spren bonds that confirm their identity, they’ve got to still be dealing with a certain amount of Impostor Syndrome, I’d think.
L: Absolutely. It’s got to be hard to look up to these almost god-like figures and know that you’re expected to follow in their footsteps, or even surpass them! No pressure at all, guys.
“They had stood above the pettiness of world politics.”
L: Interesting that Dalinar should have this thought in this chapter, when he’s having to do so much political maneuvering himself. I suspect he’s partially wishing that he could have that luxury, to be able to stand above it all and just focus on the big problem without having to deal with the intricacies of uniting disparate groups and cultures. But if the Knights Radiant were really above all of that, what use would Bondsmiths have been? I suspect that we will learn, as more about the old orders is revealed, that they had to get their hands dirty in political matters a lot more than Dalinar thinks they did.
A: I suspect you’re right, although probably a relatively small percentage had to play politics. Dalinar has one disadvantage that the old Knights Radiant didn’t: he has to convince the world leaders that there’s a threat, that they need to stand together against it, and that the new Knights Radiant really are the good guys. Back when they were facing the Desolations on a regular basis, no one questioned those things.
L: True. But people being people, I’m sure that not everything was peace and lollipops and rainbows on the world political stage.
Relationships & Romances
“Why do they refuse you, Uncle? Do they think perhaps you will try to usurp their thrones?”
L: Ouch. I can see why Dalinar takes this the way he does. But honestly, I can’t really blame Elhokar for saying it straight out. Dalinar did usurp the throne in every way that mattered. He was paying lip service to Elhokar, but doing all of the ruling himself. Now… the sad fact is that it needed to be done, and Elhokar wasn’t stepping up to the task. However, the honorable thing would have been to step forward and be direct about taking over instead of playing coy about it like Dalinar did. I can see both sides of this, honestly, and that’s why the strained relationship between them here works so well for me.
A: Oh, totally. Dalinar knows all of that, too, which is why this hurts so much. He swore never to try to take the throne, either from Gavilar or Elhokar. In a quieter time, all he’d have to do is keep Elhokar from doing too many stupid things, and it would be okay. With the Desolation that’s been building for 4500 years now upon them, Elhokar’s weakness is a luxury the world simply can’t afford—and he knows it.
“Perhaps the liar here is me—lying to tell myself I could do this, that I could be a fraction of the man my father was. No, don’t interrupt me, Dalinar. Let me have my say. Voidbringers? Ancient cities full of wonder? The Desolations?… Perhaps … perhaps I’m a fine king. Not extraordinary, but not an abject failure. But in the face of these events, the world needs better than fine.”
It’s an impossible situation for both of them, and in a way I think Elhokar came up with a very elegant solution. Unfortunately, the rest of the world doesn’t see the Blackthorn quite the way the Alethi do, so that’s going to create its own set of problems later.
L: It’s like some country saying, “Hey, we made Vlad the Impaler our Emperor! Want to meet with him?” Sure, he may be seen as a hero to his own people, but to the world at large? Not so much.
Bruised & Broken
Some things are better left forgotten, the voice said to him. You of all men should understand this, considering the hole in your mind and the person who once filled it.
A: In retrospect, of course, we know that the hole in his mind won’t last forever, and was only intended to be temporary—until he was in a place where he could deal with his past. In a way, there’s a nice little parallel there; the Stormfather believes that the knowledge which caused the Recreance should never be revealed, but it’s something that humanity is going to have to deal with eventually.
For that matter, it’s not entirely unlike Shallan’s memory blocks; she’s going to have to deal with all those “forgotten things” too. But we don’t necessarily need to get into all that this week.
L: I find it interesting that the Stormfather brings this up. It makes me wonder, with his bond, how much he might know currently about Evi. Can he see the memories Dalinar is forced not to see? How deep does the bond go, really? (This question goes for all orders, not just Dalinar’s.) Can they sense emotions in one another? This hasn’t ever really been addressed, to my knowledge. Syl has a good read on Kaladin, but it seems like she’s usually picking up on body language and his facial expressions rather than some deeper emotional connection.
A: It’s hard to say; as far as I can tell, it hasn’t been defined. Pattern seems to pick up on Shallan’s uncertainties, but again it could just be a matter of reading external signals. Most of the time, it seems like the Radiants have to whisper aloud to their spren, rather than just thinking at them. It also seems that most of the spren are able to control who hears them, as well as who sees them. I don’t know if that contributes to the solution or not, though.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
If Dalinar failed everywhere else, at least he would have King Taravangian at his side.
A: Talk about striking fear into the hearts of the readers… did anyone not shudder when they read this?
L: Yeah, this is terrifying, especially considering that Mister T there tried to have Dalinar killed! We’ll delve deeper into this down in the motivations section, but it’s scary to know that Taravangian is now going to be working side by side with our favorite father figure. What plans does he harbor for Dalinar now that his assassination attempts have failed?
Squires & Sidekicks
A: I’m going to declare this as sidekick-worthy, because we’re going to end up seeing quite a bit of this team:
Dalinar started down the steps toward his team: Aladar and his daughter, May. Navani, wearing a bright green havah, sitting in the front row with feet stretched out before her, shoes off and ankles crossed. Elderly Kalami to write, and Teshav Khal—one of Alethkar’s finest political minds—to advise. Her two senior wards sat beside her, ready to provide research or translation if needed.
A small group, prepared to change the world.
For now, I just want to note who these people are. Aladar, once allied with Sadeas, nonetheless went with Dalinar to the battle of Narak, and is now named Highprince of Information. May, his daughter, was the subject of much speculation on the serialization, but it seems, she’s simply Aladar’s daughter and primary scribe. Quite possibly, her mother is either dead, ill, or back in Alethkar running the highprincedom; in any case, May accompanies her father in much the same way many other women accompany their husbands to meetings and strategy sessions.
Navani… well, Navani needs no further introduction.
Kalami has served as scholar, scribe, and advisor to Dalinar for many years now. Kalami lost her husband Teleb (::sniff::) in the battle of Narak, and has thrown herself into her work as historian and scribe in the time since. As we’ll see down the road, she’s one of the few who think they know the truth about Evi’s death, even though she’s wrong in her assumption.
Teshav is the wife of General Khal, who is currently recovering from wounds received during the battle of Narak. She’s been another scribe and advisor to Dalinar; she not only worked closely with her husband and Dalinar during strategy sessions, she’s done a fair amount of investigating on her own hook. And of course, right here, Dalinar describes her as “one of Alethkar’s finest political minds.” (I wonder how she and Jasnah get along?)
L: Just taking a moment here to say that I really love how Dalinar can appreciate and respect women for their contributions and talents, even in the pseudo-patriarchal Alethi society.
Places & Peoples
A: I want to start this out with a little reminder:
The Azish government was a kind of beautiful mess, though Gavilar had often admired it. Layers of clerics filled all levels—where both men and women wrote. Scions were kind of like ardents, though they weren’t slaves, which Dalinar found odd.
A: This is an excellent reminder of a human trait our RL technology has reduced somewhat: the absolute foreignness of cultures you’ve never experienced. We’re bad enough at this, because overseas travel is still expensive and time-consuming, and most of us don’t get to do a lot of it. Even so, with our communication technologies, we can see other cultures, and most of us in this fandom even have friends around the world whom we’ve never met in person.
L: I’ll take a moment to interject here and say that even with the window of modern technology, foreign countries are still… extremely foreign. It’s all the little things that don’t come across online that contributes to this. My husband and I traveled to Japan some years ago, and while I knew about some of the cultural differences (bowing, politeness, taboo against tattoos, etc) I was totally thrown off guard by so many tiny little things that I never would have considered. It’s great to see this in a fictional world—I feel like this is something that a lot of fantasy and scifi authors neglect in favor of having homogenous cultures, because it’s easier or they just haven’t thought about all of these intricacies. It’s little nuances like this that really set Sanderson apart.
A: Modern Roshar—at least until they get the Oathgates working—has far less than we do by way of travel, and despite the spanreeds, there’s not much communication among any but the scribes and scholars. So here we have Dalinar thinking how weird it is that in Azir, both men and women write, many of them without being clerics. On top of that, even the clerics aren’t slaves. How bizarre! (Of course, this is the guy who married a woman from the other side of the continent, and in nearly twenty years of marriage never did manage to understand her customs.)
L: And then there’s us, the readers with our modern sensibilities, thinking how bizarre it is for the Alethi to be so blase about owning slaves!
A: Anyway, so now we’re going to see Dalinar try to negotiate with people whose cultures are utterly foreign to him no matter how much he’s tried to study them.
“Making things up doesn’t sound very Azish.”
“They’re fine with it,” Navani said, “as long as you can find witnesses willing to fill out affidavits.”
“It’s an affidavit,” Navani said, amused. “That the Oathgate is not functional, signed by Imperial architects and stormwardens.”
“Notably,” Kalami added, “it only certifies that the device ‘does not function as a portal.’ But of course it would not, not unless a Radiant were to visit and work it. This affidavit basically says that when turned off, the device doesn’t work.”
“In my experiences with the Azish,” Teshav said, “they are extremely proficient at saying very little in as many words as possible.”
L: Not to derail this conversation into the realm of real-life, but this sure sounds like politics to me.
A: Absolutely politics. I think it’s their national sport. Also, “when turned off, the device doesn’t work” makes me snort every time.
“The storm broke our aqueducts and sewer systems, and ripped apart our docks–flattened the entire outer market! We have to fix all our cisterns, reinforce our buildings to withstand storms, and rebuild society.”
L: I think the best thing about fantasy novels is how authors can use completely fictional worlds and hold them up as mirrors for us to see problems reflected from our own real world. When I look at this situation, I can’t help but see all the flooding issues the United States (and I am sure other countries) have been facing for the last few years. From the New Jersey shoreline to New Orleans to Cape Cod to even Texas, we’ve seen destruction rained down on communities from similar storms, and watched via news outlets as the people affected try to come to terms with their losses. A hurricane isn’t a highstorm or an Everstorm, obviously, but the people affected by both the fictional and real counterparts are dealing with the same issues and fallout. People are people, whether they’re on Roshar or Earth, and the best fantasy authors use these situations to highlight realities and engender empathy in their readers.
The Thaylens had a pagan pseudo-religion, and that had always been a curious aspect in dealing with them. They would praise the Heralds one moment, then speak of the Passions the next.
L: I want to know more about this religion so much.
A: YES. Especially once we get Odium talking about “passion” and stuff. I can’t help thinking that the Thaylen beliefs mix in bits of what they retained from Odium along with what they learned from Honor and the Heralds. We get hints that the western countries believe in Cultivation, while the Alethi consider her either myth or heresy. I suspect that as we learn more, we’ll find that each religion has its own weird little combination of the Shards—one, two, or all three.
One other item of interest, which of course I didn’t entirely catch the first time through, and it’s now obvious:
“The Voidbringers are willing to negotiate with you?”
“ ‘Yes,’ ” came the reply. “ ‘We are exchanging contracts. They have very detailed demands, with outrageous stipulations…”
‘Storming monsters stole our best ships—almost everything in the harbor from single-masted sloops on up—and escaped the city.’
In both cases, the transformed parshmen did the things they’d been brought up with—they reflect the culture in which they spent their lives. Dalinar is surprised by this, of course, since he expected Stormforms everywhere, since that’s what happened out on the Shattered Plains. It hasn’t registered with Our Heroes yet that just “waking up” doesn’t turn the parshmen all into vicious warriors out to kill all the humans. For the most part, they only know what they’ve always known. But we’ll get into that more in the next few Kaladin chapters, whenever those come up.
L: Oh, that’s a great point. I hadn’t considered that either. Of course the Azish parshmen were trying to negotiate and drafting contracts!
Tight Butts and Coconuts
The spanreed quickly scribbled a reply. Queen Fen was writing directly in Alethi. “‘Kholin,’” Kalami read, “‘you old brute. Quit spreading chull scat. What do you really want?’”
“I always did like her,” Navani noted.
A: Maybe it’s because I’m about the same age as these two, but I love Fen and Navani so much sometimes.
L: I’m younger but I still love them. They remind me of the Aunts in Practical Magic. No nonsense, no bullshit.
The “older woman who doesn’t have time for your BS” trope is an oldy, but a goody. The Queen of Thorns (Olenna Tyrell) in Game of Thrones. Cadsuane in Wheel of Time. Guinan in Star Trek: TNG.
A: Polgara in The Belgariad. Professor McGonagall in Harry Potter.
L: AKA Best Hogwarts Teacher. Maggie Smith’s character in Downtown Abbey counts, too—she just plays this role so well.
A: Also, Sorilea and Verin in Wheel of Time. Judi Dench as M in James Bond. Granny Weatherwax in the Discworld. Aunt Sybil in The Greater Trumps (though she’s a slightly different type).
You know, they really are everywhere, and they all seem to be kindred spirits. One of the things I love about this scene is Navani’s insight into Fen’s character:
“She’s insulting us,” Navani said. “For Fen, that actually implies a good day.”
“She’s always been perfectly civil the few times I’ve met her,” Dalinar said with a frown.
“She was being queenly then,” Navani said. “You’ve got her talking to you directly. Trust me, it’s a good sign.”
Clearly these two have had plenty of interaction before, and Navani understands Fen in a way Dalinar probably never could.
L: Of course. They’re chickens of a feather! Since we’re talking about Navani, I just wanted to take a moment to note that I love how she’s taken her shoes off for this big important political “meeting.” Comfort is key, and she’s just so confident and self-assured! She doesn’t give a single solitary f*** what anyone thinks and I adore her for that, but Fen’s taking that to the next level. Case in point:
“The world is changing, is it? What led you to this incredible conclusion?”
L: The sarcasm. It buuuuurns. (But that good burn that makes me laugh out loud.)
A: Fen makes my heart laugh.
Weighty Words
“Something is wrong in Kholinar. More than these riots or my wife’s supposed behavior, more than the spanreeds going still. The enemy is doing something in the city. I’ll take an army to stop it, and save the kingdom.”
* * *
“I’ll save Alethkar. I need one of your Radiants. The hero, preferably.”
“The hero?”
“The bridgeman,” Elhokar said. “The soldier. He needs to go with me, so if I screw up and fail, someone will be there to save the city anyway.”
* * *
“I’ll bring the bridgeman with me, and I’ll observe him. Figure out why he’s so special. See if he’ll teach me to be like him. And if I fail…” He shrugged. “Well, Alethkar is in safe hands regardless, right?”
A: I think it’s at this point that Elhokar really begins his journey to becoming a Knight Radiant. He has been humbled by recent events, and instead of either trying to escape responsibility or demanding respect, he just wants to do what’s right for his people. He finally wants to save his people because it’s the right thing, not just to make himself look good.
(That middle part almost makes me cry, though. I’m not sure which is stronger: anger at the way Elhokar will be made to fail, or grief that Kaladin won’t be able to save the city—or anything else—for him. The burden of saving what they can will fall on Adolin, Shallan, Drehy, and Skar. But we aren’t there yet.)
L: Oh, Elhokar. This little bit is the beginning of his redemption arc, an arc which is cut so tragically short by storming Moash. I absolutely love that he’s actively trying to better himself, to grow and change. He realizes his faults and admits to them, which moves him from a reactive character to an active one. Sure, he was a whiny brat in books 1 and 2, but by the time he falls, I was really cheering for him. Then… tears. And anger. Mostly anger if I’m being honest.
A: The advent of a new Radiant must also be noted:
One of my people has come forward, and—remarkably—claims to be Radiant. Her spren directed her to speak with me; we plan to use her Shardblade to test the device.
A: Okay, so call me suspicious, but anything that Taravangian claims to be surprised by… well, yeah. I’m suspicious.
L: Mmhmm.
A: I know that on one hand, we’re expecting Radiants to start showing up now that Nale isn’t going around killing them all, but having one turn up so conveniently on Taravangian’s doorstep seems… nuh-uh. Suspicious.
Meaningful Motivations
I will come to you in all haste. It is well that someone is attempting to organize a resistance to the evils that befall us. The nations of Roshar must put aside their squabbles, and the reemergence of the holy city of Urithiru is proof to me that the Almighty guides your hand. I look forward to counseling with you and adding my forces to yours in a joint operation to protect these lands.’
A: Well, personally, I think he just wants to see what he’s up against. For all the nice words about supporting Dalinar and “the holy city of Urithiru,” the pragmatic old schemer just wants to weasel in (mink in?) and find out what forces and assets Dalinar has. Lyn, do you have any further suggestions?
L: Possibly. It could also be some part of the Diagram that’s guiding his actions. Perhaps there was something in it that stated that if the assassinations failed, an alliance had to be made. There are so many things we don’t know about Taravangian and his machinations, that it’s hard to make educated guesses as to what’s going on in his head.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
Glowing gloryspren orbs burst around Elhokar. He grinned at them. “I only seem to see those when I’m around you, Uncle.”
A: So what do you think? Are the gloryspren there because of Dalinar’s bond? Or is it that Dalinar is the one person whose approval Elhokar most desires? I think it’s the latter, but… I’m not 100% sure!
L: It’s stated that gloryspren are pretty rare, but they sure seem to show up around Dalinar a lot. I suspect that it’s got something to do with what he inspires in people. His very presence inspires people to be greater, to think of themselves as better than they originally had. Hence… gloryspren. It’s worth noting that Shallan does a little of this, too… When she does her drawings of people “as they could be,” she’s inspiring them to be greater, too. So does Kaladin, through more direct methods.
This is my land now, Dalinar thought. This tower covered in coldspren.
A: We’ve only encountered coldspren a couple of times before; Navani’s notebook mentions using them in a fabrial, and Shallan noticed them when she was outside drawing. Seems appropriate to the venue, for sure.
L: I’d hate it there. But then… it’s mid April and we’re still getting snow showers here in New England, so I might be a bit biased against winter at the moment…
Quality Quotations
- “Your Majesty. You ignored me once. Destruction caused by the Everstorm was the result. Please, this time listen.”
- “Bah!” Dalinar said, pushing himself back from the table. “Fools, idiots! Storming lighteyes and Damnation’s own politics!”
- “I’ve had ample chances to reflect lately. The Almighty has preserved me, despite my stupidity.”
- The kingdom he’d fought for—the kingdom he’d forged in pain, exhaustion, and blood—now rejected him.
Join us in the comments to share your thoughts on this week’s chapter; there’s a lot we just couldn’t address, so now it’s your turn. And of course, come back next week for Chapter 13, which is chock full of laughter—for the reader, at least, and also for Adolin. Shallan is more about blushes.
Alice has thoroughly enjoyed her beta read of Skyward, the new YA science fiction project from Sanderson due out in November. She’s also having fun creeping the “teen beta” spreadsheet, where her daughter is participating in a new target-audience beta read. There are some seriously insightful kids out there!
Lyndsey is still recuperating from Anime Boston, but she doesn’t have much time to spare on rest with books to edit, a renaissance faire to rehearse for, and a toddler to chase. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
One connection from the Oathbringer excerpt to the chapter might be that if Dalinar had asked for and received understanding or forgiveness, his efforts here would have gone a lot more smoothly.
With gloryspren being more common around Dalinar, if we assume his armor is going to be made of glory, then there might be a bunch of them just following him around in the cognitive realm. That could make them easier to attract for anyone in close proximity.
Avasarala in The Expanse series. One of my favorite “older women who doesn’t have time for your BS.”
Why did the parshmen awaken without getting a form of power? I never did figure that out.
@3 my assumption for why parshmen awoke with a large number of them in the basic forms is that there are only just so many storm spren available. At the initial birth of the Everstorm they could make everyone there stormform just because of the relatively small population, but now they’re trying to supply the whole continent.
@3 Nazrax
My theory is that the Everstorm’s function was just to restore the connection that the parshmen were missing preventing true sapience. Once that was restored, they are then able to bond spren to take up new forms. At least that’s how I interpret it.
Regarding Elhokar’s development, I too love how Brandon accomplished it with little hints and subtle growth resulting in a final burst torn away. High emotions all around
@@.-@ and @5
The Everstorm restored their Connection- that is why they act like the locals. Forms of power require specific (rare?) spren and most of those are being used by the old ones,
This time through I think my favorite thing might have been Navani with her shoes off. Talk about confident! Though if I think about it-as Gavilar’s wife she has probably spent hours doing this kind of thing. The location is different and the stakes (and husband) have changed but there’s probably a lot of familiarity with the whole circumstance for her.
The epigraph not wanting forgiveness… could be related to the usurpation of Elhokar’s kingship. He did what had to be done for the ‘greater good’ and would do it again if he had a do over.
Queen Fen was refreshing after the Azish formality, and I loved her from the first. Some good levity to balance out the gloom, destruction, and brokenness we feel from so many of our other characters-it takes all kinds.
I would agree with @5 Scath, the Everstorm gave full sentience to all the Parsh, but it didn’t have time/manpower to make them all evil voidbringers on the first pass. I remember being a little surprised on the first read how they had indoctrinated their cultures so well even though they spent all their time in manual labor etc.
That’s all I have time for now. Love this chapter! Actually all the chapters…
re: the Passions – at the Portland signing, I asked Brandon if the Passions of Odium were related to the Passions religion, and he said, “mmmmm….. kind of.” So there’s that.
For me, the Epigraph sets up both Young! and Old!Dalinar, since we just came out of the first of his past chapters. And I absolutely *loved* that the Azish Parshmen were writing contracts. That had me laughing out loud.
It’s highly relevant. The other monarchs won’t forgive the Blackthorn because they do not understand how much he has changed. (Neither does Dalinar, yet, of course.)
Of course Dalinar only knows polite Fen. In the past he wasn’t worth being genuine with.
Elhokar probably thinks there are more gloryspren around Dalinar because Dalinar is the one who is successful while Elhokar is a failure who isn’t worth attracting them. Now he finally attracts them himself and thinks that is strange.
Is admitting his limitations Elhokar’s first Truth/Oath?
@11 birgit
I think the mention of the limitations in this chapter was the lie that attracted the cryptics to begin with. By the time he died he only swore the first oath of life before death, so I do not believe he had a first truth yet, as the first truth counts as the second oath.
This isn’t the first time Elhokar has attracted gloryspren in Dalinar’s presence. It happened twice in TWoK, and of course it might have happened off-screen sometime(s). All three instances we’ve seen have been in Dalinar’s presence. I do like the idea that maybe they tend to follow him around in the Cognitive realm, though.
Also, we know the Cryptics have been interested in him for a long time, so this scene is not the beginning of their attentions. It’s just, IMO, the beginning of his movement toward a bond.
I remember really enjoying this chapter during my first read through, especially Dalinar’s reactions to Fen, and Fen herself. Politics themselves don’t interest me but the way Brandon approached them in this series had been pleasurable to read
*grin* I should pity Dalinar, but I had too much fun watching the Azish politely stymie him with bureaucracy, and then Fen’s bluntness as a palate-cleanser. A reminder that Lift must have hit the Azish government like a whitespine in a…do they have ceramics on Roshar? I don’t remember.
Heh. They think Yanagawn was the resurrecter, when he was the resurrectee.
I still think May is an odd name in a world that doesn’t have our calendar.
I also like Fen’s bluntness. I have a low tolerance for beating about the bush. That kind of thing offends me a lot more than people being blunt and to the point. Comes with the territory of Asperger’s Syndrome I guess. Speaking of I hope we can eventually do rereads of the various Mistborn books just so we can eventually discuss Steris.
I would like to say that Mr. T having a Radiant around isn’t nearly as statistically suspicious as you all make it out to be. Really, we’re only suspicious because she’s with HIM. After all, he had, what, two whole Radiants with him in book 1? And a character randomly strolling in being Radiant out of nowhere outside the Shattered Plains isn’t all that strange. See: Lift. the Awesome. I’m actually more suspicious that the other countries HAVEN’T had Radiants show up yet, especially at Thaylen. With all the destruction the Everstorms are causing there, There should be a statistically significant number of people broken enough of spren to crawl in.
If you think about it, despite murderously working for the enemy, the Everstorm would also be ‘snapping’ (breaking?) people in massive numbers, like the Mists were in Hero of Ages.
And his blood-stained personal history. The earlier Radiants perhaps did not have that small obstacle to get past with every single ruler on the planet!
I just had a thought. Is it possible that after getting his memories back Dalinar cannot forgive or understand HIMSELF. I mean he unsderstands PARTS of it, that he WAS responsible, but maybe not how could he be so weak? As for how he cannotforgive himself, that should be self explanatory
I have to admit I am behind in my re-read: I couldn’t start the re-read in time as I wanted to finish my other book first. As a result, I have just finished… chapter 9 :-O but I should catch up this week-end. I needed to say, while I fervently defended Renarin, he does come across as very creepy there. I don’t think this was ever explained later in the narrative, so I’ll keep my eyes open.
In this chapter, which I haven’t re-read yet, what hit me the most was Elhokar. I never liked Elhokar. I never bought into this “I want to be a better king” discourse back in WoR as, even then, he seemed very focused on his own personal glory. This being said, I have to admit he did turn around more sympathetic within this book and I was even sad when he died. Admittedly, I wished his relationship with his family was better explored: I always found Dalinar’s guilt related relationship with Elhokar fascinating not to forget Adolin who comes across as the competent one, but doesn’t seem to think much of his cousin.
As for Dalinar playing politics, ah, I am sure I will have a lot to say on the matter, once I actually catch up. I don’t recall paying a great deal lot of attention to this chapter during the serialization.
@17 – The odds are even longer because she was part of the Diagram before her spren came.
You talk about Shallan drawing people “as they could be” and that inspiring them: I have found myself wondering whether Lightweaving has any power to affect the soul. If so, then Shallan’s problems with identity might partially be caused by her disguises.
@23: yes, it does. You are onto something with that thought. But I have no clue where the WoB is that hints strongly you are correct.
@15: I would think so. All that rich crem around. Someone has to figure out how to mold it, color it, and fire it to harden. I think Horneater white is stored in something special. It eats metal cups.
I like Navani correcting Elhokar here. “You’re not renouncing the throne.” Oops. He didn’t thibk things through again.
I also liked the Stormfather’s comparison of the Recreance to Dalinar’s forgotten memories of Evi. It seems to work very well since Dalinar regained his memories when he was strong enough to handle them, and I somehow don’t think knowledge that the humans were the original Voidbringers will deter our current crop of Radiants (at least not the ones we know well). I am sure Kaladin will wrestle with it some, but I bet Shallan, Lift, and Dalinar will see it as more of a so what? I personally see it that way. It is sad, to be sure, but it is a little bit like murdering someone’s entire family and saying, well, their grandfather killed my grandfather. It doesn’t make you less of a murderer, just perhaps a more sympathetic one.
I love that each spren got its own pedestal in Urithuru’s amphitheater. They literally put their spren on pedestals; there seems to be some irony in that, considering how Kaladin struggles with Syl in this book to find “true morality” and seems disappointed that she does not have all the answers.
I also love Navani in this chapter, and I love how Dalinar casually shows her affection, rubbing her back, and then thinks to himself how giddy he is (and at his age!). It is just so sweet. I hope my husband feels that way about me when our children are grown. :)
This chapter is a good contrast to the last one, with Dalinar remembering “unit[ing] in a different way”. I agree with 18 (longviewer) and 10 (Carl) that Dalinar as a Bondsmith has a particular set of challenges because of his past as a Thrill-addicted berserker and general for his brother. I am sure this is part of what drove him to write the in-world Oathbringer. I REALLY can’t wait for the next book to see how it is received!
I have to agree with Lyndsey that Urithuru sounds awful. “Lit by the frail light of candles and lamps”, tower covered in coldspren” – this sounds horrible to me! I like a lot of sunlight and warmth in my life. I wonder if Kaladin will have a hard time living in Urithuru.
Random Cosmere aside: the Passions made me think of the Jeskeri Mysteries from Elantris. Not sure why, but I wonder if there is a connection? Probably not, but I would like to know more about both. I would think perhaps the Mysteries relate to Dominion, and I feel tempted to view Dominion as a “bad” shard like Odium, but that may not be fair at all / just may be my personal biases. I love that Dalinar thinks he “wasn’t one to fault another for unconventional beliefs” when we literally see him confronting Evi for hers. It is just one of the many examples we have of how much Dalinar has changed – Cultivation for the win!
Does the Shin hating spanreeds have to do with their view of using Stormlight as profane? Don’t spanreeds need infused spheres to operate?
@25: Whereas guiding voidspren put themselves on pedestals.:-p
@21, Gepeto:
I can explain it right now (but I might of course be wrong): Renarin is bonded to a storming Voidspren. And Shallan is a nervous and insecure teenager.
Note that Renarin acts much more like a Fused than a Radiant, mastering only one Surge. We only get one time that it’s even hinted he can use Illumination (that I noticed). Of course, we don’t know how many Oaths he has spoken and probably won’t find out until Book Six or later.
@25, Evelina: Thought triggered by your comment about sad Kaladin: he is being Sazed here, all depressed and frustratingly passive and morally conflicted. This time Sanderson only made it twice as long and frustrating as necessary, as opposed to Sazed being morose and motionless for ten times as long as I would prefer.
Also, “I wonder if Kaladin will have a hard time living in Urithuru.” Yes, it’s cold, but he could go up an elevator whenever he wants and be in sunlight, since the top of Urithuru is above the clouds. Might be the perfect place for him during the Weeping–he could avoid being rained on! (Well, whenever he wants during the day.)
“Does the Shin hating spanreeds have to do with their view of using Stormlight as profane? Don’t spanreeds need infused spheres to operate?” Spanreeds don’t necessarily use spheres but they contain infused gemstones. Which means they can’t easily be recharged in Shinovar. One suspects that Dalinar simply hasn’t thought this through (he has never been to Shinovar) and is misinterpreting the fact that they’re not used in Shinovar as meaning the Shin don’t like them.
@@@@@15. AeronaGreenjoy, About the name May, I thought it a strange name also. Aren’t most Alethi names symmetrical?
How did they put it… prose? Sorry can’t remember the word they used….
Chapter 12 brings home the importance of instant communications in negotiations. Spanreed is RL’s version of instant messaging (or fax machines for the old timers). For most of human history, negotiations had to take place either in person (still the most effective means of negotiation) or by post. If by post, situations could radically change while both sides sent proposals back and forth. It is amazing to think that deals could be brokered if there were any distance involved.
Speaking of instant communication such as spanreeds and oathgates, do we know if an Elsecaller can elsecall from one location in the physical realm to another location in the physical realm without first having to elsecall into Shadesmar? If so, it would be a much more useful Surge.
Lyndsey: Awesome comparison between Dalinar and Vlad the Impaler (i.e. Count Dracula)
Lyndsey: Interesting observation about Navani taking of her shoes in the interest of being comfortable when talking politics. A few months ago, Kelly Ann Conway (who I am no fan of) was roundly criticized (and I think unfairly so) when photos came out with her with her shoes off during meetings in the Oval Office. For those who are not versed in the participants in US politics, Kelly Ann Conway is a senior advisor to Mr. Trump.
I just hope you did not criticize Ms. Conway for her shoeless photos. If you did, then positive statements about Navani taking off her shoes in Chapter 12 would be hypocritical.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
Whether the Radiants did indeed stand above the pettiness of world politics – which, given the complaints about their Oathgate tariffs and some other alluded grievances we have read about in WoR’s epigraphs may not have been the case, the gem archive demonstrates that there was enough pettiness – and politics in their internal interactions. Also, they seemed to feel that dealing with all that stuff was too much for just one Bondsmith – which suggests that there were usually more than 1 and that they had their hands full.
Loved this scene with Elhokar – and one of the things that I really would have wanted to have in OB was one chapter from his PoV. So many juicy things that could have happened – like him realising that he had been entertaining a couple of Heralds during the fateful feast when his father was murdered or that some of the “assassins” stalking him were, in fact, Cryptics! For that matter, I would have liked to see a hint of suppressed artistic inclinations in him. Oh, well. Of course, in this chapter the hapless king blunders yet again – this time with best intentions, and creates a wholly unnecessary complication for Dalinar and Co. Even though he was kinda right about the need to separate Dalinar’s position from Alethkar.
It is also deliciously ironic how Alethi “political experts” are unable to figure out the – rather obvious once we learn Dalinar’s backstory, reasons for the extreme distrust that the other monarchs feel towards his ouvertures.
And speaking of said experts – why is Kalami described as “aged”? Surely Teleb couldn’t have been more than 10 years older than Dalinar – and he still was very much a fighting field commander at the time of his death. Even a shardbearer, IIRC. And given that Kalami was described as a reknown historian, it seems unlikely that she could have been his wife when young Dalinar first encountered him, so she was likely younger than her husband.
Anyway, I find that both Teshav and Kalami are really bland and interchangeable. Whatever happened to Inadara and some other scholars from WoR? They seemed more “alive” and distinguishable even as the bit characters and SA really needs more background female characters with individuality and growth potential – it already does it really well with the males.
Is it because the Thaylens are “pseudo-pagan” that they have a ruling queen, even though in Vorin doctrine ruling and administration are supposed to be male arts?
Speaking of parshmen transformations and how they took on the cultures of their regions – isn’t it still a bit odd that some of the Azish ones could suddenly read and write? Or that the Thaylen ones could sail? After all, we have seen that Alethi parshmen didn’t gain any new skills after their cognitive healing and parshmen everywhere would have been used for simple and repetitive manual tasks. IIRC we never saw a parshmen sailor before the Everstorm.
I really liked queen Fen too – I kinda want her to become a Radiant. In fact, if not for her needing to stay put and leading the Thaylens I’d have loved if she became a second Bondsmith.
Carl @27. At this point in time, Shallan has only mastered one Surge: Lightweaving. She admits that she cannot do Transformation and knows she needs further training on that Surge. Also, until a Skybreaker speaks his/her Third Oath, she or she does not learn the order’s second surge. Do think that Shallan and all Skybreakers are bonded to Voidspren? No. It just means that some KR learn Surges at different rates.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@17 SCMof2814
I agree and also feel with the advent of the everstorm caused destruction, there will be a “surge” of radiants popping up. That might be part of the 1 year gap. That during that 1 year, a whole bunch of radiants have shown up or started doing their thing and we will get introduced to a bunch of them in the course of book 4. The fused mentioned in a conversation with Venli about having to watch the humans closely to prevent that from happening from the very humans they rule over. That is why in their mind they seek the extermination of the humans when they win.
@22 Austin
Not necessarily. We do not really know what ash spren look for in their radiant exactly yet. So it could have been Malata would have been the perfect choice because of the situation she is in.
@27 Carl
Ehhh, jury is still kinda out on whether Glys is technically a “voidspren”. I personally believe he is a truthwatcher spren, who was corrupted by Sja-anat, which to me means he is not a voidspren, but that is my own interpretation. Renarin uses illumination on the thunderclast so he has used both surges. Just illumination was difficult for him. Soulcasting is difficult for Shallan, and it has nothing to do with voidspren. But that does not preclude the corruption from playing a part in his difficulty of using illumination. Just some thoughts
Gemstones are the objects charged with stormlight. The sphere portion is just a dollop of glass to make carrying them easier and more uniform. Spheres tend to hold stormlight better because the gemstones in them are cut. The gemstones in the parshendi beards were uncut, so they were not as efficient in holding stormlight. So as long as the gemstones are cut properly, there is no difference between the gemstones on a span reed holding stormlight, and a sphere in your pocket. However Shin being shielded from highstorms might make it difficult for gemstones to get recharged, though they could still get charged, just not deal with as powerful of a storm due to the mountains.
@28 snaggletoothedwoman
Alethi names are typically semi– symmetrical because true symmetrical would be too holy and blasphemous. That is why Sadeas liked Ialai’s name. Because it was rebellious in a fashion. Dark eyes tend to not have symmetrical names. May is a light eyes, but we have also seen lighteyes with symmetrical names go by shortened versions that are not symmetrical. So it could be that. Also regarding the other comment about May being odd considering they do not have the same months as we do. Sanderson has commented on how the books are being “translated” for our consumption. So May could be the closest analogue for us Earthlings to the Alethi version. Same with Lift always saying “awesome”. Awesome does not exist on Roshar, but there is a word in her language that means an approximation of that. So when she uses that word, we read awesome. Did I make sense in my explanation?
@29 AndrewHB
I personally believe that elsecallers can do instant transmission as we have oathgates which use transportation, and that is how they function.
@30 Isilel
Although I do agree it would have been interesting to get Elhokar’s PoV for those scenes, I can understand why they were not included. Jasnah did not have written descriptions of the Heralds till the end of the book, after Elhokar was already dead. So he would not have been able to connect the people he spoke with on that fated night with the Heralds of yore. He wouldn’t know the “assassins” were cryptics till he began to bond his spren and spoke to it. He could have theoretically spoken with Shallan, but given I do not think he has actually seen her spren, nor has he described the assassins while around her would prevent the connection from being made. I agree I am voraciously curious regarding what artistic leaning Elhokar led for him to be a lightweaver. My personal theory would be music, as that would explain why we have seen no sign of it as it is a feminine art. Though then again art may also be a feminine art, so never mind lol.
My theory regarding the parshmen transformation is due to the restored connection from the everstorm, the parshmen received the “national identity” as it were of the location they were at. So the parshmen of the alethi are more militaristic, the azir more bureaucratic, and so on. This gave them almost “alethi form”, “azir form” and so on which would enable them to do tasks they had never been trained for. At least that is my theory on it
@31 AndrewHB
I see you had ninjaed me while I was writing up my response. Great minds think alike lol.
I too loved how Dalinar shows his feelings (how non Althei) for Nanvani. Perhaps a sign that Evi and Adolin have rubbed off on him.
I go back to my previous comments about “heroes”: it’s better to know that normal people with all their warts and faults can become heroes when it’s needed. To make them perfect means the rest of us can never get there.
Elhokar is really the saddest of all. There is something about seeing potential and redemption cut down before it can flower that just hurts.
I too loved how Dalinar shows his feelings (how non Althei) for Nanvani. Perhaps a sign that Evi and Adolin have rubbed off on him.
I go back to my previous comments about “heroes”: it’s better to know that normal people with all their warts and faults can become heroes when it’s needed. To make them perfect means the rest of us can never get there.
Elhokar is really the saddest of all. There is something about seeing potential and redemption cut down before it can flower that just hurts.
@30 @33 I also assume that their abilities are related to Identify and Connection (in the cosmere sense of the words).
Scath @33
Later on during the Alethkar raid, Elkohar draws a very good map. He probably was artistic but was never trained in it due to ruling responsibilities.
@37 EvilMonkey
Ah good point! Thanks for reminding me! :)
@25: I wondered why non Radiant characters never commented on being cold in Urithiru. Our other viewpoint characters are Radiants, hence they can chase the cold by inhaling stormlight. It made me ask myself why no references to needing hats, warm coats and/or mittens were made whenever we are in someone who isn’t a Radiant POV.
@27: I am of the opinion Renarin’s spren is a legit Truthwatcher spren who was corrupted by an Unmade. Hence, Renarin truly is a Radiant, but one with a corrupted spren which influences how his powers manifest themselves. I still do not find how it explains him starring endlessly at Shallan/Adolin as they walked away from the second murder’s scene. After re-reading this chapter, I realized his behavior is never really explained. Clearly, he knows nor sees nothing about Adolin murdering Sadeas, so why is he fixating his brother in such way? Or was it Shallan he was fixating on?
@30: Theories dating from before Oathbringer had readers figure out Elhokar’s artistic talent laid in house decoration… There are a few references, both within WoK/WoR, of Elhokar being responsible for arranging original party settings and/or having chosen some prized elegant artifacts to decorate his palace. I always felt this wasn’t much to go on, but since Elhokar did attract a Cryptic, I am forced to admit this must have been it. He was also quite good at drawing his map in OB.
I didn’t find Teshav and Kalami inter-changeable. Teshav is the old, rigid lady who gives Adolin/Shallan an eye-roll when they were being adorable love-birds in a very public place which was such an un-Alethi behavior, others started to whisper “Westerner” behind Adolin’s back. I loved it. Kalami is the cold-heartened woman who wanted to label Evi as a traitor to justify her death: she shed no tears for poor Evi. No one did. Except perhaps the boys, but we didn’t get to read it.
@34: I don’t know about either Evi or Adolin rubbing off Dalinar: I thought Dalinar was just naturally being more expressive with a woman he loved and have loved since his youth. I thought this book did highlight, more than the previous , ones, how much Adolin takes after his mother (her eyes, her smile, her hair, her face, her hugs).
@@@@@ 26, AeronaGreenjoy – I didn’t think of that, too funny!
@@@@@ 27, Carl – Good point about Kaladin, I had not thought of that. Poor Sazed. His arc in the Hero of Ages breaks my heart, although I agree is can be frustrating (especially when he is in Urteau with Spook).
@@@@@ 39, Gepeto – perhaps this is because they are mostly military and wear uniforms? We do see Teft selling his military coat to feed his firemoss addiction which implies the coat had some value. I think Veil also wears a long coat and Shallan never remarks that she looks out of olace
RE: Renarin
Looking back, I would think that Renarin staring at Shallan and Adolin would probably be related to his visions. It might be he sees their marriage, fighting in Thaylen City, or something that hasn’t yet come to pass.
Those pesky seers, you never know what they’re seeing.
I will be going against the grain but I never liked Navani. Aside from the fact that I think she is an opportunist and manipulative, I think she is not a good mother to Elhokar, Navani had admitted that she finds her son weak, so why did she not help him and guide him? She is doing it for Dalinar, so why not for her son.
That said, I will have to add that she is also selfish. She has not shown any motherly feelings for Elhokar except to say he is weak.
Maybe in the next books there will be a flashback that will show that Navani has been a good mother to Elhokar or that she helped Elhokar in some capacity. Until then, Navani will just be this woman who seduced Dalinar so that she can be the power behind the throne once again.
I don’t see why Navani can’t be sympathized with despite not being a perfect mother. Surely the Stormlight Archive is about redemption–you have to do something wrong to be redeemed, unless you’re a traditional Jew or Christian (who must believe in Original Sin).
Navani was at least arguably a bad mother. (We have no way to be sure until we flash back and see her mothering Jasnah and Elhokar.) Dalinar personally killed thousands of people, no exaggeration, and ordered tens of thousands more killed at the least. Why would Navani be more sympathetic?
@42 Making a lot of assumptions aren’t you?
Evelina @25:
I think that Shin attitude towards stormlight is… complex. For one thing, after OB we know that gems holding stormlight were used for the training of the bearers of the Honorblades, so obviously it is permissible to utilise it in some circumstances. OTOH, in WoK Szeth thought that using stormlight for illumination was profane, IIRC. And, of course, the Shin probably have problems with the whole “trapping spren” mechanics of the fabrials, even though I think that it will turn out that doing it to non-sapient spren isn’t different than what happens during their natural symbiosis with the Rosharan lifeforms. BTW, do we actually know that it is impossible/difficult to charge gems in Shinovar? Yes, they don’t have storms as such, but Honor’s/Stormfather’s perpendicularity would still pass over the region and that’s what recharges gems, not the storm itself.
Scath @33:
Jasnah had pictures of the Heralds’ true appearances since the end of WoR courtesy of Hoid, so it seems rather contrived to me that to our knowledge she never showed them to her family or any of the main PoVs in OB, but apparently intended to somehow send them to her Veristitalian pen-pals, which was a pretty bad idea, IMHO.
And yes, I kinda expected Elhokar to see Pattern in his physical realm form and make the connections re: the “assassins”. After all, Pattern revealed himself to the scholars in late WoR, so again, it seemed odd that he would then hide so assidiously in OB. Of course, it turned out that it was to deflect suspicion from Glys until the climax and, I guess, to maintain the “surprise” of Ehlokar’s Cryptic, but it felt, again, quite contrived to me.
I am not entirely sure how instrumental music can even be considered a “feminine art”, when it requires 2 hands, but yea, I wish that Elhokar had been the one with the “edgy” flute collection, rather than Amaram.
And the parshmen absolutely did receive “national identity” when they were healed, but, as we have seen with Kaladin’s bunch, that didn’t translate into them automatically acquiring skills that they didn’t previously possess. They didn’t instantly become warriors – why should the Azish ones have become scribes and the Thaylen ones sailors? IIRC, there were no parshmen sailors before the Everstorm, though they were sometimes employed on the fishing boats – probably for rowing and other such tasks. OTOH, we also see some literate Alethi parshmen later, so I dunno…
Gepeto @39:
Do we know that Elhokar actually designed the decorations in and around his palace on the Shattered Plains? IIRC, he just liked to be surrounded by beautiful things and ordered it done, which doesn’t necessarily suggest that he possessd any artistic inclinations himself. And drawing a good map is IMHO, too little too late and has more to do with technical drawing than with art, IMHO.
Sheiglagh @42:
Navani is able to help Dalinar, because Dalinar listens to her. Ehlokar clearly didn’t. He put his wife in charge of Alethkar and didn’t make Navani his close adviser when she arrived at the Plains. Also, it wasn’t Navani’s place to teach Ehlokar how to rule, since ruling is a masculine art. It is pertinent that she, rather than the crown prince, who was already over 18 Rosharan-style was the one who kept Alethkar together during the last couple of years of Gavilar’s reign, but clearly her son neither recognized nor learned from her contribution. There is also only so much that a parent can do, particularly in the area of education that is not considered to be within their proper expertise for sexist reasons.
Also, having seen young Dalinar and knowing that he froze her out once his elder brother started to court her, I can’t really fault Navani’s past decision to marry Gavilar. She was also likely constrained by external circumstances, like family pressure et al. to marry _some_ powerful man ASAP, so she couldn’t have waited for Dalinar to get his stuff together. I really hope that we’ll learn more about her family and situation back then.
@45 isilel
Could you provide the page or scene where hoid hands jasnah drawing of how the heralds look or is that an assumption that because she was around him he did so? I don’t recall that scene so if you could point me in it’s direction I would appreciate it
Regarding pattern, he hides himself as a “pattern” on her dress all the time. The only people that have seen “floating” was adolin during their one on one, the scholars during the battle of narak, kaladin adolin and azure in the cognitive realm. Otherwise pattern stays against whatever he is on very vague. Please point out to me a scene where elhokar comments on pattern? Again if I missed it I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction
Oh also pattern was floating around on the boat when jasnah and shallan sailed towards the shattered plains. But every situation I can recall of pattern flying around, had no elhokar around. But if you know of one, please let me know
In your review of this chapter you mentioned the communication between radiates and spren; whether they could communicate mentally, which you speculated that the radiant all had to at least whisper to their spren. In the chapter where Kaladin is pursuing the parshendi, as he’s about to give his speech, holding his slysword, to the crowd in a village he’s intrupted and comments that he’s become a circus act (or something like that). He can hear sly laughing in his head. Would this potentially show or hint at mental communication
I don’t remember any Herald drawings from Hoid, but later Dalinar brings some people into his visions where they see the Heralds.
@40: Agreed, but living in a cold country, I wish the story had expended on the topic. It could have fit within the “fauna and flora” part of the narrative. Perhaps within the next book?
@41: Agreed it could have been anything, but I feel this was a plot point left open. Perhaps it will become relevant within the book too?
@42: Granted Navani isn’t my favorite character. She comes across as a tad bland, to me, as a reader, but I feel this is more a by-product of her character not getting a lot of exposure and thus fleshing out more than her really being bland. While I understand your grievances, I must disagree with you. I never read Navani as a manipulator nor a seductress. I read her as a woman who made a poor marriage in a world where divorces are not a possibility. Once her husband died, she finally saw the opportunity to be with the man she really loves, and whom really loves her too, but has to face her own religion which prevents her marriage as it views them as siblings. Determine to over-come this issue, she tries to seduce Dalinar, to entice him, but I never read it as “manipulation”, more as “desperation” to be with a man she loves for what is left of her life.
As for her being a bad mother well…. see the thing is “good parents” are more or less of non-existent as all parents will make mistakes. Before I became a parent, I had great ideas as to how great I would as, of course, I wouldn’t be making the same mistakes as my own, very poor, parents. Of course, I would automatically know how to deal with my children and I would never fumble around, I would never raise my voice, I would stand helpless not knowing what to do. Reality has a way to sink into you as I was quick to realize I was no better than my own pesky parents neither did I seem to have the “great knowledge” I thought surely I must possessed. Hence, Navani surely, like every single mother, made mistakes.
She is a very driven woman caring little for what other people think of her able to have her ways into the world. Her son is the opposite: he has no backbone, he cares too much about his personal image and he is indecisive. Having a child who is so different from her, who is “weak-minded” when she is “strong-minded” must have been very difficult. It however bears no significance to the love Navani does bear Elhokar: it shines in WoR when she frets over her son, when she speaks of her fear the assassin will come to take him away from her. She also this sad moment, with Adolin, where she mourns her son. Yes, Navani loves Elhokar, but he was a difficult individual to be around and it may be she never found the right way to handle him. I however do not doubt she did try.
Also, as @45 Isilel points out, clues are Elhokar didn’t want his mother’s advise in the first place. Navani was shunned upon at the court, considered to be a relic of the past as opposed to a worthy adviser. Navani is Dalinar’s trusted confident and adviser only because he wants her to. Nothing says Elhokar did want his mother’s advise…
I would also point out we do see Navani try to reach out to her children, but it is hinted throughout the books her children wanted nothing to do with her. Jasnah turned cold on her and refused to be mothered. It is not unthinkable the same happened with Elhokar who did marry a woman his family didn’t approve of. We see Navani acting as a “good mother”, being nurturing, firm and yet loving in the books: we do see her being this person, with Adolin who’s probably the only younger Kholin wanting physical affection.
Hence, Navani is not perfect: she tends to be dismissive and arrogant, but at the same time she is driven, passionate, affectionate and she yearns for a happy family life. She wasn’t the perfect mother, but I did get the feeling, while reading the book, she did try to be, to the best of her ability.
@45: I definitely agree this isn’t much to go on, but prior to OB, when we were discussing Elhokar’s future status, the counter argument to readers stating he hasn’t shown any artistic inclinations was to highlight the… decorations it was hinted he elaborated himself. I haven’t read those passages in a long though, so I wouldn’t be able to state how they withstand the passage of time. I agree the map was long in the coming and I suspect Brandon wrote the scene to give more credence to Cryptics having choswn Elhokar.
On the side note, something just occurred to me, all those talks about mothers… when Evi died, Adolin was in cart, somewhere in between Jah Keved and Kholinar. Being a prince of the crown, surely there was an Ardent with a spanreed traveling with him. Hence, did little Adolin learn about his mother being killed through the mouth of an Ardent while being surrounded with guards, far-away from any closed ones? Or did he learn about it, weeks later, once he reaches the capital, weeks after everyone else? This makes me think of one particular episode in Dexter. Somehow, neither options seem… desirable.
@46, Scath:
Not to preempt Isilel, but when Shalash is leading Taln out of the city (at the very end of chapter 121), as she’s about to pass out, she sees that Jasnah has a picture of herself and Taln, and thinks that it was drawn by Midius. “Midius” is one of Hoid’s many names, I believe the one he originally had on Yolen.
To many re: Navani
I did not say she is a bad mother. I said she has not been a good mother. And someone said that I am making a lot of assumptions, but isn’t it the case in these discussions? Everyone is making assumptions. So, why can’t I make assumptions about Navani not doing her job as a mother.
Someone said about her children (Elhokar and Jasnah) freezing Navani out. Well, has it ever occur to you that there must be a reason why they did?
Also, someone suggested that I said that Navani did not love Elhokar. I did not say that, nor assume that. The way I see it, Navani is so absorbed with her studies and pursuits that she does not have time to worry about her children unless it is already so obvious that something was wrong.
As for politics being a manly pursuit, I disagree with that. Women are the ones who runs the spy network. They are the ones who connect the dots. So, all in all, it is a team effort. Elhokar might be a weak king. He might even be a weak person, but he grew up in a ruling family. He knows the rules.
Also, we never saw Navani advising Elhokar, so those who are saying that Elhokar was not listening to Navani is as much as guilty as jumping to conclusions like everyone else.
So what is a good mother? What is a bad mother? I don’t know. All I know is that during Elhokar’s time of need, Navani was not there. She went back to the Shattered Plains for herself, not for Elhokar. She said so herself in WoK and WoR.
Then things started happening. But instead of trying to have a spy network going for Elhokar whose wife is not in the Shattered Plains to help out her son, she pursued Dalinar.
I don’t care whether it is proper or not. She can walk around the Shattered Plains naked for all I care. What I care about is that Navani did not even care that whatever she was doing will affect how people will view her son. This is a case of the sins of the mother become sins of the son.
People already has a bad opinion of Elhokar. And Navani carrying on like a lovesick teenager was just bad form.
Am I being judgmental? Yes, I am. But its not because of mores of society. It is in relation to the political landscape of Alethkar which Navani just chose to ignore.
She got what she wanted. She married Dalinar. But at what cost? We already know that Dalinar is in muddy waters because of that marriage.
So, unless the narrative changes, I will never see Navani as an adorable aunt. I will continue to see her as an annoying aunt who is so self-absorbed that she believes that rules do not apply to her.
As for the current narrative, I see Navani as an author’s tool to move the story forward, to elicit feelings, to rock the boat, as manner of speaking. So, in the end, what I feel about her does not matter because chances are Navani will just be that until Sanderson decides that he will use another pawn to move the pieces on the gameboard forward.
I said making a lot of assumptions, because you seem to be bending over backwards to make Navani be this horrible manipulative person when so far the narrative doesn’t seem to be going this way. Now, I could be wrong it could be that all of this is subtle foreshadowing that I, and the rest of the readers, are simply failing to pick up on, and that you have seen. But until then I am going with Occam’s Razor.
Speaking if if you want an example of Navani could of believably failed to be a good mother I could easily see her going along with that whole Jasnah closet thing for too long, because see thought it was for the best.
I personally HOPE the oath she failed was that she gave an oath to not let Jasnah out no matter how much she screamed, but eventually she couldn’t stand it anymore and let her out. But the fact that Navanai still waited as long as she did before giving in and letting Jasnah out of the closet is something that could both believably strain their bond AND is supported by the evidence in the narrative so far. Than again that’s MY bias showing.
I’m still interested in why some find Navani (perhaps an inattentive mother) less sympathetic than several multiple murderers who are now Knights Radiant.
I am personally looking forward to the reread of Chapter 16 Tied Three Times. Especially since a good part of it is examining the REASONS behind tradition and rules.
Getting back to the issue of the name May, I know it’s a fairly common name in Mandarin (or a fairly common name component, they like to combine two characters rather than just one), usually using the character for “beautiful,” I think. I don’t know if that would have influenced Korean naming traditions, which Brandon would be more familiar with.
Although, from what we’ve seen of Alethi names, I would guess it’s still a nickname or possibly foreign. Most Alethi names are polysyllables with single syllables (like Kal) as nicknames.
Because, the world may be tottering on the brink of disaster and all our characters may be one misstep away from going over the edge, but that’s no reason not to concentrate on the really interesting things, like possible linguistic history and theories.
@52: I have no issues with Navani leaving Kholinar and reaching the Shattered Plains, for herself and not for her son’s benefit. She spent a putting everyone else before herself: Gavilar’s conquest, the kingdom, her duties. Hints are she gave up being a scholar for Gavilar. I found it refreshing to read a female character who just decides, for once, what she wants comes first and this happens to be Dalinar. Navani is a woman, she isn’t just a mother: her children are grown-up, so what if she feels her relationship with Dalinar is more important than Elhokar’s reaction to it? Besides, it is never explicitly stated Navani’s relationship with Dalinar is actually harming Elhokar’s kingship. On the opposite, Navani states she could go about prancing naked and no one would care for she is the dowager queen. Sebrarial entertains a darkeyed mistress: no one cares if Navani is with Dalinar excepts the Ardents because they view them as siblings. Kelek knows what they think of Sebrarial and Paloma and yet it hasn’t harmed his authority within his princedom.
As for her somewhat being responsible for her children “freezing” her out, I do not believe it one minute. Nothing in her behavior indicates she has ever been anything else for loving to the best of her abilities. Dalinar describes her as a “mother hen” overseeing the good of her “little chicks”. We see how she is with Adolin, very motherly, very nurturing. Why him? Because, as Dalinar put it back in WoK, Adolin lets her do it, worst he actually likes it. There is no reason to believe she was any different with her own children. They took their distances? The reasons might not be Navani: teenagers can be pesky and unfair. Young adults often speak poorly of their parents. I read nothing more into it. I certainly do not believe Navani purposefully hurt Jasnah as a child. I do not know what happened in this dark room nor why it happened, but I do not believe Navani did anything with ill-feeling. It could be Jasnah was really sick, it could be Navani was told this was needed to “cure” her daughter from “evil spirits” and she cried the whole time. We just do not know. What I do know however is nothing in Navani’s current day behavior hints towards her having been mean towards her children. Imperfect? Certainly, but not on purpose.
On the matter of Navani being a tool, I read her more as Dalinar’s side-kick than a tool. She has less of a narrative than Adolin, but she is less of a tool than him. Her purpose in OB was to stand strong next to Dalinar, to take over when his memories were troubling him and, IMHO, showing the readers how much of a good queen she would be, even if she does not want it. She has a very small arc, towards the end, with the painrial. if we can refer to it as an arc. She could grow more within the future books or she could remain as is. I would be fine with either, but I would love if Brandon would write more Navani/Adolin/Renarin/Jasnah scenes to flesh out more her relationship with the younger ones. There were not a lot of Navani/Renarin scenes and no Navani/Jasnah scenes. Off all people, Navani’s relationships with Dalinar (obviously) and Adolin are the ones which got the most focus so far. I thought those small scenes really helped her character.
@54: My thoughts on the oath Navani failed have been she failed her oath to Gavilar. How? I cannot say. Maybe she was unfaithful. It is hinted in the books Gavilar was a poor husband.
On the side note, I finished chapter 12. One thing which took my attention was how the Blade summoning/dismissing tic originated from Gavilar, which passed it down to Dalinar, which transferred it to Adolin. I thought it was a nice addition to the narrative.
@58 My thought was she began doing the closet thing because she was TOLD it would her daughter, but in the end her own motherly instincts told her it was wrong. Hence why the oath wasn’t important. The purpose of that oath was supposed to help her daughter but all it did was hurt her.
That was my train of thought at least. Not saying there is anything inherently wrong with yours. In fact the more we learn about Galivar the more he comes off as what TVTropes would call a Broken Pedestal.
I am on my phone. I will add a link to the page later
@59: I don’t know. I find we haven’t much to go on with this particular narrative. All I can say is, when the Stormfather told Navani she broke her oaths, once, I spontaneously thought of her oaths to Gavilar. Were my instincts right or wrong? I have no idea, but oaths imply something “formal”. I have a hard time seeing how Navani agreeing to a nefarious treatment for her “ill” daughter counting as oaths. Oaths imply a formalized structure such as oaths made as wedding vows, so huh, I dunno.
Perhaps we could try to ask Brandon to give us more information? He isn’t touring much these days. I wish I could ask him my own personal questions.
@43: Jews don’t belive in Original Sin, that’s solely a Christian thing.
@51: One thing that’s been bothering me about that scene- Jasnah is presumably standing facing Shalash and Taln, yes? And if Jasnah is looking at the pictures, all Ash should be able to see is the back of the paper. But somehow she can make out the drawings. Does Ash have X-ray vision or something?
@60 I’d consider a promise to be an oath but maybe that’s just me.
Also since were dealing with honor I feel it’s important to bring up the difference between internal and external honor at this point. Does everyone know the difference or do they need a refresher
Approaching the ‘older woman’ status myself (well, middle aged is more like it), I can say there is defnitely a kind of security and freedom that comes along with it that I did not have in my 20s.
The thing about Elkohar’s arc is that it’s one of the things that shows that while Sanderson isn’t a ‘grimdark’ sort of author and more or less has a positive outlook on things – he is still capable of brutally subverting tropes and expectations in tragic ways.
sheighlagh@42 – I respect your right to have a character rub you the wrong way (There are definitely characters both in Stormlight Archive and other works that I don’t always love as much as others in the fandom do) and I think you make a interesting point about her mothering and treatment of Elkohar. When we see Jasnah and Navani’s reunion that at least seems to show that they at least have some bond, but we don’t know what her relationship with Elkohar was like. Although it’s possible she did try to guide him and either he or Aesudan was unwilling to accept. But Carl kind of beat me to in that she may very well be a flawed mother but still a good character.
And like Gepeto points out, parenting is a fraught thing at times. I have two young boys that are very different and relate to me in different ways and I’m still not sure if I’m doing it right, or if I’m overcompensating/projecting based on what I deem to be mistakes made in MY childhood, etc.
Several more comments were posted after I loaded the page – just curious, what is the ‘closet’ incident people keep referring to? I remember Jasnah having the memory of being locked in a dark place and crying and hints of some kind of illness that influenced her mental state, but were there ever more details on that (I only read the book once, and it was loaned, so I don’t have the ability to re-check for things)? Or were more details revealed outside of the book?
@64 Sorry. I assumed the “dark place” was a closet. My bad
@63: I don’t know at what age we are supposed to be “old”… I am not even sure when “middle-age” is supposed to start… I however do not “feel” old, but I did find it interesting Navani, as an older woman, did choose to act for herself. Women, mothers, often tend to forget themselves, to live and breath for their kids: it great Navani wants to marry Dalinar just because she loves him. And yes, I did feel some of it, if not all of it, came from her being older, wiser and really not caring what other people think of her behavior. She has one life left to live and she wants to spend it with the man she loves. This was an interesting addition to the narrative even if I am, by far, more interested within the younger love of Adolin/Shallan which will, undoubtedly, be filled with hardships.
On the matter of Navani’s mothering of Elhokar, as I pointed out above, there are passages where she speaks of her fear of losing her son. The scene, in WoR, where Kaladin comes back from fighting Szeth, towards the end, Navani is fretting over Elhokar, asking about him and his well-being, dead afraid her last child is dead. I did feel the love and the care… In this very chapter, I did read the care and love of a mother when Elhokar tries to abdicate.
I definitely relate to having two very different children (one if unfortunately much like myself, very emotive and passionate, but lacks the drive I always had while the other one is very rational, grounded, probably really smart, but lacks perseverance) and towards fearing repeating the mistakes of my own youth. I also find it hard to accept my kids may not have the same strengths as myself, to accept they are struggling where I never struggled and yeah, it is hard. So hard. Especially when you have to accept they will make their own mistakes and yeah, maybe you know better, but they just won’t listen to you.
With Navani, I felt she did try, to the best of her abilities. I think she was probably very unsettled by Elhokar’s lack of strength, which is so much unlike her and I definitely relate to her being exasperated with him. I can see why this would get to her in a negative, profound and difficult to manage way. I would never judge her harshly for it, for I can’t pretend I am doing better.
With Dalinar, well, everyone knows how I feel about his parenting abilities…
@63 On Brandon Sanderson not being afraid to kill off characters despite not being grimdark and being generally optimistic. If I remember reading the Elantris annotations correctly.He said to protect the hero’s from death completely is to deny your villains agency. That is something he won’t do.
@50 Gepeto
I don’t think spanreeds were all that common back then (15 years past?). It takes time for technology to spread and become accepted. So, to answer this thought, I would be surprised if there was an Ardent with a spanreed travelling with him.
Navani seems to me to be a polarizing character, her importance to the storyline outweighs her screen time to a large degree. I believe the underlying reason for this is that she is a bulldozer. She doesn’t let anyone or anything stand in the way of what she wants and she has both the intelligence and skill to get things done. That type of assertive behavior can rub people the wrong way, both in person and if you’re reading it. Just look at the examples in the narrative. Her management of the ardentia and soulcasters despite claiming only patronage. Her steamrolling Dalinar into admitting his feelings for her. Her holding the coalition together by force of will while Dalinar pieced himself back together. She gets shit done, and that can be intimidating for those close to her.
As for the mothering part, it’s obvious to me that her drive to nurture is a mile wide. Not only does she smother Adolin with it, she attempted to do the same with Shallan when she thought Jasnah was dead. She does her best to protect her own children as well. Both of them freezed her out but I believe for very different reasons. For Jasnah, it’s because they are too much alike. Brilliant, strong willed women who get shit done. Jasnah isn’t as compassionate (probably due to her unknown childhood trauma) and probably more ruthless than her mother, but they are cut from the same cloth. For Elkohar, he has been overwhelmed his entire life by not 1 but two strong-willed parents, parents with power and leadership ability down to the last toenail. His older sister got all those traits despite whatever handicap she went through as a child. He likely realized early on that he didn’t get those gifts. Still, he wanted to be great; great men do not ride their mother’s coattails no matter how capable that mother happens to be. This may not have been much of a problem so long as Galivar lived but as a King who many already see as weak and easily managed, cutting those apron strings was essential.
As for Navani and her ambition and selfishness, I think I must defend her. If all Navani wanted was power, she could have stayed in Alethkar. Aseudan didn’t seem to me like a very big obstacle for Navani to overcome if she chose and the army was away. If her skill wielding power at the coalition meetings is anything to go by, she could have made herself a pocket kingdom without much effort. She chose instead to go to Dalinar. Not the Dalinar that we have now, the one whose star had fallen precipitously. The entire world thought he was a lunatic when Navani came a-courting. And in all the time she has been with Dalinar never once has she tried to exercise power in a self-aggrandizing way or used power in any way to hinder the war effort. Was she selfish in choosing Dalinar for a mate? Possibly. However, both her children are grown and hold positions of power in their own right. Jasnah doesn’t need her help. Elkohar didn’t know how to accept her advice without looking weak and therefore did not consult with her. Plus, I feel that she’d done her time. Aseudan was a disaster as we’ve seen; Navani probably delayed the fall of Alethkar in the absence of its leaders, serving as a check on Aseudan and her cronies, but she had been marginalized by the time she left. Unless she was willing to take a more active role she was going to be wasted where she was. IMO Navani earned the right to make a choice for love for once in her life.
I can respect those in the fandom who do not like her, are even violently opposed to her as a character for whatever reason. All I can say is that I like her, and for much the same reason I like Jasnah. Competence.
It occurs to me that I can make an argument for Navani’s being a future Radiant.
1-Both her children were. (Elhokar was killed a bit early, but he did attract a spren.)
2-Only Radiants and future Radiants have been shown conversing with the Stormfather (that I can remember), except for Navani, unless she’s a developing Radiant.
Have folks noticed that Oathbringer is a ketek, by the way?
@51 Carl – re: Herald Portraits
I remember Jasnah saying (the first time Dalinar brings her and Navini into a vision) that they should bring in Shallan in the future to do all sorts of drawings. While I think some of those were architectural or character studies, I can also see her wanting portraits of the heralds. While Shallash might think/assume they were done by Midius (or Hoid), it seems more likely to me that they were done by Shallan.
@70 Carl
All of the Stormlight books are keteks (so far, at least).
@68: A good point but the Navani talk made me wonder about this… Young Adolin either learned of his mother’s death in cart while being surrounded by guards or weeks after everyone else, once they have all grieved and accepted the truth. Neither options seem desirable… I mean, I am trying to imagine how it must have felt for a 12 years old boy and nothing positive comes to mind.
@69: I like that Navani is a bulldozer and I find this discussion very interesting. Upon my own admission, I have admitted finding her character a tad bland, but the more we talk about her, the less bland I find her. She is a bulldozer and, yes, on average, people do not react well to women being bulldozer. They get call out bad names, told it is reprehensible when the same behavior, in a man, is praised upon. Had Navani been a male character, what would readers be saying about him?
I find the rest of your post very inspiring. Yes, Navani does also show her mothering with Shallan too who doesn’t really know how to respond to it. My personal suspicions as to why Jasnah froze her out are linked to Jasnah’s dislike of marriage and her negative view of it. I have always thought the story more or less hinted Navani gave up being a scholar when she married Gavilar, hinting how she feels lesser than her engineers, despite her great mind, thinking they suffer her for her patronage as opposed to her smart. To a driven woman caring little about emotions such as Jasnah, it must have looked as if Navani gave up on herself and, as a result, she lost respect for her. I can definitely relate to those feelings as I used to think ill of my own mother’s lack of a professional career due to having spend many years at home with us, children. I do not believe those things anymore, but when I was a teenager, I snorted on it, hence it made sense to me Jasnah would adopt a similar behavior. Now, I may be entirely wrong, but this is how my mind made it out to be.
I agree about your assessment of Elhokar: remaining in his mother’s skirts and having her be his most trusted adviser would have undermined the authority he was trying to develop far more than Navani actually courting Dalinar. Navani never complains on this either which makes me think she accepts this is necessary.
I do not find Navani was selfish for choosing to be with Dalinar: no one is being selfish when they choose to act upon their heart. Nobody is calling Dalinar selfish either for wanting to marry Navani… They love each other, they want to be together, they are both widowers: how is this selfish?
I also agree Navani is not ambitious: she does not seek power for herself. If she were after it, then she would have had golden opportunities to show her real colors and she didn’t.
As for her being a polarizing character, she suffers from being an important character with little exposure, much like Adolin. As a result, readers are allowed to push into the character basically any motivations which works for them as the narrative never really dig enough into the character to dispel it. It is how, for some readers, Adolin is a selfish sociopath one hair away from hacking countless of people, like the Blackthorn once did. Navani, I fear, suffers the same faith and is a manipulative seductress for some readers, but a driven motherly woman for others.
@71 What is a ketek?
According to the coppermind wiki, a ketek is a form of holy Vorin poetry which reads the same forward and backward (allowing for changes in verb form), and is also divisible into five sections, each of which also expresses a complete thought
A form of symmetrical Alethi poetry.
EDIT: ninja’d by EvilMonkey
So how is Oath bringer a ketek then? I’m confused.
I think they are referring to the section titles, which together comprise a ketek (I believe they do for the other books as well).
https://coppermind.net/wiki/Ketek The Coppermind.net ketek explanation.
When Shallan and Iyatil infiltrated the ardent quarter and visited the herald didn’t they say that the ardents keep madmen in darkness? That is probably what happened to Jasnah.
Carl @51:
Exactly, Shalash saw depictions of the Heralds’ true appearances in Jasnah’s possession at the end of OB and recognized the drawing style as being Hoid’s (whom she had known under the alias of Midius). As far as we know Hoid didn’t visit Urithiru during OB, so Jasnah must have already had them when she arrived there. Additionally, when Jasnah communicated with her Veristitalian pen-pals in part 2, she wrote to them that she had true likenesses of the Heralds in her possession and would attempt to share those with them. But for some reason, she didn’t think to share them with the Kholinar infiltration team, even though she herself said that the Heralds might have become dangerous?! This was very contrived and implausible, IMHO.
Scath @46:
But Pattern is not shy, he has no problems showing himself to people once the cat (mink?) is out of the sack and there is no need for secrecy, so I’d have expected him to appear in his full PR form in OB much more than he did. And it is rather unbelievable that Ehlokar wouldn’t have asked to see the Radiant spren. He even had a perfect opportunity when he and Shallan were alone.
Sheighlagh @52:
Judging by that snippet about Navani personally trying to put the 6-year-old Jasnah to bed, she was rather more involved in raising of her kids than women in her position iRL tended to be. Which is the opposite of suggested neglect.
Speaking of spy network – it doesn’t seem like Navani was ever in charge of one, nor did she have anything to do with assassinations. It seems like Ialai was doing that for the Kholin-Sadeas alliance at first and then Jasnah took over for her family when she was old enough. I guess that just like not every Highprince is a warrior, not every highborn wife is a spymaster, though both skills are definitely helpful in Alethi noble society.
Nor do I see that Navani’s romance with Dalinar cost Elhokar significantly – his own short-comings cost him far more, effectively turning him first into Sadeas’s puppet and then into Dalinar’s.
Gepeto @73:
I disagree that it would have reflected negatively on Elhokar if he made his mother his close advisor. Expressions like “mother’s skirts”, “apron strings”, etc. are very much rooted in our patriarchal cultures that basically maintain that women shouldn’t have influence on anything beyond their home, if that, and that relying on them for counsel is a sign of weakness in a man. That’s not the case in Vorin cultures, however, where women traditionally have the “clerk and advisor” niche. So, there was nothing except for his own prefereces that precluded Elhokar from working with his mother – personally, I suspect that he kept her at arm’s length because she was trying to tell him things that he didn’t want to hear. As we have seen, he very much tended to be willfully oblivious.
But that’s very much another reason, why I was a bit frustrated that we didn’t get a chapter from Elhokar’s PoV, preferrably showing us Jasnah’s dramatic “return from the dead” and Kholins’ reaction to it. I wanted to see them interacting together as a family, for once. Not to mention that I always thought that Elhokar’s reaction to Jasnah’s “assassination” in WoR was very lacking and implausible. Even if they weren’t close, it should have blown his already existing paranoia through the roof. And his sister’s return as yet another Radiant, not to mention the one who had been secretly been one for years, should have really fed his inferiority complex.
With the ketek reference, I didn’t just mean the epigraphs.
The plot structure is symmetrical about the middle of the book. Things happen a certain distance from the beginning, then essentially the same thing happens that distance from the end (but often amplified).
For instance, near the beginning, three people learn to use Stormlight as Squires (Lyn, Hobber, and Skar). Near the end, three people learn to use Stormlight (as Radiants): Teft, Venli, and Lopen.
Another, smaller, example: near the beginning Kaladin says, “Do better” after making a small but significant error. Near the end, Dalinar says, “Do better” after blaming himself for a tragedy (his nephew’s death).
An essay could be written on this, I think. I’m convinced Sanderson did it on purpose, though I can’t prove it without asking him.
That’s deep :D And I can definitely buy that it’s an intentional cyclic structure.
I should admit that it actually took me 3 books to even realize the section headers were a ketek. I could tell there was an odd symmetry to them but I didn’t put two and two together with the ‘in world’ art form.
@82 I would love to see an essay on that. If you write one please share it with us.
Consider the battles of Alethkar and Thaylen City, both resisting attempts by the Odium forces to conquer Oathgate cities and national capitals.
First a loss, second a win for the Honor/Cultivation side.
During the first, people leave for the Cognitive Realm. During the second, those people return.
During the first, someone who has been pursued by a spren that would like to bond hesitantly recites an oath, inspired by an existing Radiant. He’s interrupted by one of Odium’s servants and killed.
During the second, someone who has been pursued by a spren that would like to bond hesitantly recites an oath, inspired by an existing Radiant. She’s interrupted by one of Odium’s servants and … survives to finish saying the Immortal Words and become a Radiant.
Note that both are sibs of potential Radiants.
IIRC the story starts and ends with Dalinar sitting in the same room, but the mood is enormously different.
Notice, by the way, that Hoid is a character that completely ignores this story pattern. As is his own way, he defies everyone’s rules, including the author’s!
Random thought: could a Willshaper cure her mother’s dementia? We have almost no idea what they’re capable of, but that’s an evocative name.
@81: You are right in saying the expression “mother’s skirts” might a by-product of my own modern day influence where it might have been looked badly upon, within certain circles, to listen to your mother. The good old boy’s club is still, ah well, it is still there. I assumed it might have looked bad on Elhokar if he were to have his mother as a close adviser, but you are right in pointing out it might not have been the case in Alethkar.
It is an interesting point to suggest Elhokar might have kept his mother away to avoid hearing her tell him his truths…
This being said, while I do understand the frustration of not having had an Elhokar’s POV, I find within this book and this series, they might not have worked out given how Brandon wanted it to play out. In other words, an Elhokar POV might have spilled the eggs with respect to his proto-radiancy which in turn would have completely changed the shock factor his death carries due to its unfortunate timing. I was actually convinced Elhokar wasn’t a Radiant due to his lack of “rapid healing” following his wound.
Whether the apron strings theory is correctly applied in this situation or not, there is obviously some reason Elkohar chose not to take his mother’s council. He says it out of his own mouth, he married Aseudan because he needed her, that he could not be strong on his own. Judging from what we’ve seen from both Navani and Aseudan and their performances in terms of rule, Navani was and is much better at political maneuvers than Aseudan could ever be. So why freeze out his mom? If we speculate, if the mother-as-advisor thing doesn’t make the other Alethi nobility look at him sidelong then another possibility involves his observations on his parents’ relationship. Elkohar so desperately wants to be a great man like his father and uncle. What if dear old dad openly dismissed Navani and her observations, or if he privately belittled her. Elkohar may have gotten it into his head that Navani held no political value because his great father never valued her? It puts a rather more sinister cast to that relationship if Jasnah as youth and her ordeal had not already done so. Anyway those are the 2 senarios I can think of. I’d love to hear others.
Not sure about SF and Dalinar but Pattern absolutely knows the things Shallan is blocking out, he’s prompting her to accept them and coaxes it out and already knows what she did, not just her folks but testament.
But yeah over the years that’s always been curious, how much they really know, especially now with stormfaker versus SF with Dalinar later